MyPUAJourney Forum

Hi, ever since I started with PUA, I've always had this problem with using stock canned opener's (not saying I dont want to use them, I would really would like to). I feel like I dont believe in what it is that I am saying to people and it shows. Its just like what happens to scott on his first approach in episode001 at 9:15
Now most people have told me "you must have moral qualms about lying" and offered the advice of "open with things you're genuinely interested in", but thats not the point of the issue for me. why should it matter if what I am saying is true or false. after all its just an opener right?
I get this feeling of fear inside that says, Im not going to be able to back up anything I am saying to these people. I know Im fake. I know I dont have a friend with a jealous girlfriend. Thats like my naked self. what do you do if they ask you a question relating to the opener and you can't answer right away?
This makes me feel like I am missing the point of PUA altogether. Im more focused on the words that I am saying, then why I am even talking to them in the first place. Im not looking at PUA in the correct context, or I dont have the PUA mindset. This is a performence art right?
Has anyone else ever experienced this or had this problem? How is it that everyone else is comfortable with this?
the only explanation I can think of for this is in The Game, when Style says, "its not lying, its flirting". Can anyone explain this reframe for me?

thanks

there are multiple things to address here. i'll try to tackle all of them as best i can and as concisely as i can. however, i've never been very good at being concise when talking about game. i tend to go on and on with way too many examples and technical stuff that isn't all too necessary. either way, i'll give it a go...


first off, when i first started my main problem with using canned openers was that i knew they worked. this is the reason they're called canned openers. they've been field tested and proven to work. you keep a bunch stored up (in a imaginary can) and use them as you please. getting a group to hook is easy if done correctly. in essence getting them to hook is in the bag or in the can if you will. knowing that when used CORRECTLY they will work is what bothered me for a little while. i knew that if i failed it was my fault, not the material. this is the point of them. by using things known to work, it's one more variable you can take out of the equation when analyzing what you've done right or wrong.

next point: you mention how you've been told you should open with things you're interested in and your response is that it's not the point of the issue for you. i disagree to an extent. does it matter if it's true or not? no. does it matter if you care about it or think it's interesting? no, but it certainly helps. you don't always have to be truly interested in the question. in fact i generally don't give two shits about the answers and rarely remember what their answers were just 5 seconds after hearing it. however, i have fun asking all the openers i use. that's the real key here. if you're not having fun, how can you expect them to? when i ask a group if they would ever date a guy who lives in a tent, i don't care if they say yes or no. i think it's funny and it gets a laugh. i also have follow up responses for either answer they give.

this leads me to the next point. you have to find openers that you find fun/funny and then think of some fun/funny responses for possible answers they may give. usually you want to ask a question, then have a short follow up response for it before transitioning. there are other things you can do like root the question and or follow up with a story but they aren't all that necessary. i think rooting openers is overrated. most people root to make the question seem real. the openers i use are ridiculous so if i do root them, i make them obviously fake like the question itself. quick example, i say things like a my friend lives in a tent behind his parent house and they let him run an extension cord to power a clock radio and how he has ninja turtle sleeping bags. just a bunch of random stupidity to get laughs. i think it's fairly obvious that a 22 year old guy doesn't have friends sleeping in tents with ninja turtle sleeping bags. it roots the story, but it's obviously a joke in itself.

as far as what to do when they ask questions, this is why you have to have fun with it. if you're having fun, then being able to think on your feet and improvise is a lot easier. if you're bored and uninterested you're ability to improvise will show that.

if you feel like you're fake, they're gonna know you feel this way. like they mention in the game, anytime you're subconsciously wondering what a girl thinks of you while conversation you're gonna fail. that's because your subconscious thoughts find a way to surface themselves in a very noticeable way. if you feel fake, you're bound to come across as fake.


the key when using fake opinions is to have fun with them. if you're opening to have fun and that's you're main purpose, it'll show and girls will be responsive. they will be able to sense you're there to have fun and there's certainly nothing fake about that.

Rhetoric gave the good answers already, but here's my 2 cents.

Do you care about the openers? no. Does that matter? Not necessarily. In my opinion, the openers themselves are just words. What's interesting to me, and makes anything genuine, is I'm interested in how they ANSWER the openers.

Rhetoric has some great advice, if the openers are fun, the answers are what count. example. Would you date a guy who lives in a tent? If the girl just flatly says "no" - and the question has been asked in the right body language, smiling, innocently, clearly as a joke, then I can presume that she maybe a dull person - not necessarily, but maybe and I can decide to proceed or just bail (unlikely that early on!)

However, the thrill for me is how WILL she answer? That's what I want to know, will she ask if I live in a tent? will she answer with "hell yes! I love camping" Will she answer with humour? THAT's the part that makes my openers genuine, and keeps even canned stuff interesting, I don't care about the question - I care about the answer.

I guess perhaps what all of this is really about is I know I'm "fake" and I am conveying to be someone that I am not??? and I can't seem to fit that in my head, and make myself understand and accept that (limiting belief). Could you offer a reframe or a different context of how to look at this so its no big deal, or explain to me why it shouldn't be? like, how style said in the book, when he would run his opener, he didn't look at it like he was lying, he looked at it as though he was flirting.

ive really been trying to drill this into my head, as to why it shouldn't matter

btw, has anyone here ever told the Mystery stripper girlfriend/smashed windows story while in set?

It doesn't matter, you prolly have some guilt issue in your head.

Girls don't present themselves the way they are too, they often put up a wall (shit tests) and can react cocky, while in reality they're sweet and nice.

It doesn't matter if you make a little lie at first, because it's just an opener... 5 minutes later you will have opened up more and you'll be talking about something totally different. At the end of the night or the next date you'll present the real you more and that first opener really DOES NOT matter anymore, it's gone and forgotten.

qix makes a good point. the answers they give are where you can begin to get insight on the girl you're dealing with. also if you choose to continue on with the opener for a couple minutes the answers are where the fun comes in because it allows you tie in their responses latter on. for instance as qix mentioned, if she says yes and that she likes camping, that's a great point to transition off of.

i mentioned how often i don't care about their answers, and perhaps this is inaccurate. what i really should of said is that lately i've been trying to go into more natural conversation early on. so i'll open with the tent opener and have follow ups based on their answers. i pay attention to their answers but ultimately don't care too much and typically forget after i transition. if they start to invest into the opener, i'll transition into something more natural like, "you guys seem cool." usually they'll respond with, "we are cool", but if not i'll ask, "are you guys actually cool", or something similar and then start from there.

after i get into question i actually care about and/or qualifying questions i began to focus on and care about the answers they give.

when i first started i would try to memorize a routine of about two questions, some statements, and other various stuff and in that case i had it to where the answers they gave meant nothing. i don't memorize routines anymore because i never got them to work. things never work out in reality the exact way you imagine them. it was hard to improvise when i was set on running a routine. now improvising is pretty much all i do.



as far as your problem with your frame of mind, Mr makes some good points. the opener is fake generally, but it's to get them warmed up to you and talking. after they start to show interest you can be the real you. in fact you can be the real you right after the opener. you just need a good way of getting them to open up first and openers do that.

the fake opener is nothing more than a device that gets girls talking to you. that's it. it doesn't make you something you're not and it doesn't make you fake. they're tools. is a mechanic fake if he uses wrenches instead of using his teeth? is a carpenter fake if he used a hammer instead of driving nails into boards with his fists?

tools are made to be used, so use them. once again the key is to have fun. there's nothing fake about wanting to have fun. using an opener helps you have fun because they help you get girls talking and talking to and running game on girls is fun.

game is all about having fun. if you aren't enjoying it, there's no point in doing it. that goes with all aspects of life really.

i have had the same issues as you. the jealous girlfriend thing is not me. tried it a couple of times, and it was not great.

using fake stories is another one. they may be good but it feels fake.

What is an opener?

A way to open and start a conversation with someone.

now if you open a stranger, in club, it is hard to start a conversation cause there is nothing in common apart from the venue you are at. so you got to talk about something which will get her interested, hopefully talking (more then one word), but at least listening.

its like digging a hole in the ground. You find the spot, you make the first dig, then you keep on digging and you get deeper.

I think you have seen some very long openers, maybe opinion openers. I guess most of these are for clubs and bars. and these would probably not work during the day and with different types of women.

Think of the opening people as a way of having fun. So you try anything.

remember if you want to talk about things you care about, are passionate about, are interested in that will take place in comfort.

Being social and talking wiht girls, you got to rrmemeber is talk about stuff which doesnt matter, have fun, talk about random stuff. You dont have to be serious about anything at the beginning.

another piece of advice, " it is not what you open with, or even what she says next, it is your response to that which determines where the interaciton will go."

if you want go situational or direct, thats the best way to do it, especially during the day.

again, canibus and Rhetoric are dead on. Another thought though. If you don't like the openers you're using because they're fake, then change the openers you're using. If you're lying in your openers, I can't reframe that to make you feel better about it, but you can change them so that you're not lying. For example, instead of using the jealous girlfriend opener as "hey guys, i have this friend who has a box of stuff from his ex..." you could just say "hey guys, I have a question. It's really common for couples to collect stuff from past relationships right?" they answer "Well, when you date someone knew, how do you feel about their old collection from girlfriends past? how would you react to finding their box one day?" etc etc.

Pose the question differently so that you're not lying. If you're feeling fake, I'd bet you're delivering the opener weakly as well - because you don't feel congruent. Remember, canned material is fine, but don't feel tied to it, you should eventually abandon it anyway, so if it feels more natural for you to change it, then do so.

The feeling of being fake or dishonest is something I feel confronted with when using openers that are deliberate ruses used solely as an excuse to achieve an interaction, which are then kept going for the duration of the interaction and around which it is centered. This would include asking directions (you don't really need directions cause you're not lost), asking where a men's clothing shop is (you know where they are and you don't really need to find one anyway), etc.

Any thoughts on how to deal with feelings of being "dishonest" when it comes to those types of openers?

OH! Sure, if you're centering around an opener, then you're using them wrong. An opener should be just that - an opener. "Hi" is an opener, it's just not necessarilly different enough to ensure that you have the girls interest enough to move on.

I agree, asking for directions that you don't need may be a little tryhard. But, maybe you're putting too much pressure on yourself? Think about it in reverse. If you found out a girl axsked you for directions that she didnt need, would you be offended and pissed off, or flattterred that she wanted to talk to you enough that she was willing to do something silly?

Again, I'd offer that if those types of openers make you feel fake or dishonest, then don't use them. Take some time and write down some generic questions that interest you that you can ask a girl that you DO care about and use those.

Some are partial to situational openers. These can be as AFC as "Do you come here often?" or along the lines of "do you know how to get to kalamazoo?" Personally I'm not as big a fan of these as some because I think the woman sands a good chance of having already been hit with that question by someone else, as such, it's of less interest to her when I ask it.

here are a few tips when coming up with openers. These are to help you come up with indirect openers - I'm sure some will disagree with my advice if they're in a more direct frame of mind:

1) Make sure they're not searching or commonalities. That's the problem with things like "What's your major" or "Do you Come here often?" They telegraph lower value because it's pretty apparent that you're searching for things to talk about with a complete stranger, which shows a little too much overt interest.

2) The opener should be interesting. But interesting to a woman. This accomplishes a few things. It peaks her interest, but it also may help lower the interest of any guys in the group that you don't want to talk to. Mystery suggests questions about relationships, the occult or emotional topics.

3) Something fun that you can do for your openers is frame them like you're doing a poll - Don't try to be fake and pass yourself off as a census man. If you have a friend who is also into this approach, then you can be very honest. That's the idea behind the openers that start with "Hey guys, my friends and I were talking about..."

Above all, don't center your interactions around openers. If you do, you're probably hitting a point where you've run out of things to talk about and it starts to feel forced.

To stick with our jealous girlfriend opener example, here's a rough rundown of how your interaction could go:


"Hey guys, can I get your opinion on something?"

"sure"

"O, cool, thanks, I have a friend who's been dating this girl for about 3 months now. They're not super serious, but they're getting to "that" point. Anyway, She's at his place one night for dinner, and he realizes he forgot to get something, so he runs out to the store for a few minutes and tells her to make herself at home. She does, and while he's out, she goes through his closet and finds this box full of old photos and letters from his ex girlfriend. He comes home and she confronts him about it and want's him to burn everything, but he doesn;t want to because it was a part of his past. What do you think he should do?"

They answer. You can then either tease the target with something about her probably being really possessive. Tie it to you (out of curiousity for the answer) "I bet if you and I were going out, you'd make me burn my old stuff wouldn't you?" Tease the group with something like "Man, I'm super possessive, I'd make you burn evrything. In fact, I'd probably have a private eye follow you, and maybe tap your phones. In fact, I might ask you to get one of those GPS bracelets like they make prisoners wear so I'd always know right where you were."

durning this, you watch them and look for places that you can topic switch to a different dhv story, or something else that you can ask about. Maybe you notice that one of the girls has really long fingers and you take that opportunity to play a kino game with them ("you know, I heard somewhere that if you're ring finger is longer than your index finger it means you have more testosterone, let me see your hand." and you play that game with them and then transition into something with legs. maybe it's not osmething prepared, maybe you just rif and talk to them about whatever.

anyway, this post is gettting uber long. I hope that helps. The moral of this story is don't dwell on your openers as a matter of practice, but especially if they're making you feel fake. Work on transitioning and hopefully you can get out of your openers LONG before they begin to make you feel weird.

i'm not adding anything new here, but i'll just double up on few things that qix stated to drive the points home.

qix's steps for coming up with indirect openers are nice and concise. step 1 is especially important for the very reasons he's mentioned. definitely don't go about opening without taking step 1 into consideration. even if you decide to go direct and be completely honest and upfront, it would be dumb to telegraph such low value interest like in his examples of what not to say.

you also want to make sure that your conversations aren't all in question form. you should talk more in statement form. when you talk comfortably with friends are you just firing away with questions? probably not. it's mostly in statement form. same things applies when talking to girls. this helps make the conversation more natural and less like an interview. the questions you do ask should be interesting and used in a way to gain insight on her and/or qualify her. questions should not be used in a way to merely prevent stalling points. (obviously the opener can be an exception)


the second point of qix's i'd like to double up on is his very last one. you should definitely focus more on the transitioning. transitioning can be tough at first. it certainly was for me because when i first started i would be nervous about the opener and unsure if they were feeling me after delivering it. i would generally just excuse myself and leave. now i find that if the opener isn't great, i'll just transition quickly and move on to something more natural. this usually works quite well. it's certainly better than bailing on a group.

my advise would be to open and then transition shortly after until you get comfortable with doing both. by both i mean opening in a way that doesn't make you feel weird and smoothly being able to transition. you'll find that the transition and the conversation that follows is far more important and enjoyable than the opener. once you get good at transitioning both off the opener and at any other point you'll begin to realize that the opener can literally be as simple as saying, "hi." or even, "you guys seem cool."

I do this during the day, it can seem fake, but my frame is to have fun with her:

ME: "Which book do you recommand?" hold two books
HER: she picks one blah blah
ME:"Cool, your hired as my personal book critic. i hope this wasnt a one off. What is the book you ever read? i always like to try new things."
HER: blah blah
ME: "oh my gosh its over, you going to lose your job if you continue giving such poor recommandations. Please this time tell me some thing good. " A bit of a smirk is good here.
HER: blah blah
ME: Ok you job is safe for now, am going to have to keep an eye on you, your performance review will be coming up soon, and i only hire the best.
....

It is totally fake, yet i get on to have fun, get her involved in role play, push pull, teasing, so she has fun. I will transition to a normal conversation later or carry on with some games in the book store (like read plays together being the actors)

Consider this when feeling fake.

Name one women who does not put on make up?

Most women's physical beauty is an illusion. They are not being truthful with their looks. think about the time you woke up next to a women you had sex with, she is definitely not as hot as she was the night before.

Dont worry about being fake, you are just being social, and talk about nothing, just having fun. When you spend more time with her, you can be honest and real, and talk about what you want to talk about. Its a progression, you have to check it other out first before you can open up.

If you are going to want to spark some interest from a girl at a club or bar, than you will need to do what qixsilver was saying, you will have to hook her with some thing intersting too her and her group. Or you can go social proof and talk to everyone in the environment, get them laughing and leave, and appraoch the hottest girls till last. then re-engage later the ones who where interested. for this all you do is say "Hey, you guys having a good time?"

In daytime, you can go direct, you can use pre openers( common things you ask people - what is the time? where is .....? How do i get to....? etc) to get there attention and go into a cold read/statement (you look like you are from mexico) or a tease (like above) or a compliment (especially if she is rude or non commital) or go direct. If she not talking much, go into an opinion opener thread, so that she can get more invested in the conversation.

If you want to be real, then go direct, although it wont work in clubs and bars, cause they expect, others have done it, they think you are drunk. But in daytime if you do it and you got good body langauge, voice, eye contact, good inner game, it will work.

say something like

"Hey, I know this is random but I thought you were cute/interesting/fun and wanted to come meet you. I’m XXXX"

or

“Hey I’m sorry to bother you, but if I didn’t say hi to you I would be kicking myself all day. It’s just that you rarely see someone in this city who actually has a friendly face, nice to meet you! I am ...”

Maybe the reason you dont like using these openers is cause you afraid they will work (fear of success) or you fear being rejected or you fear that they will not be interested in you but a fake version of you.

Most of the time she wont even remember what you said to start the conversation, she will remember the feelings you evoked in her. The essence of the conversation - "it was so fun, he made me laugh, he was confident. We connected". She will remember the important parts of the coversation like when you are connecting and building rapport and commonalities etc.

The only time you will be fake is if you carry on a persona or character - such as a rich man, or famous guy- in a serious fashion. Or you tell lies when you start moving into personal stuff when connecting wiht her. If she opens up and and you open up through lies, then that is fake.