MyPUAJourney Forum

Whoa - I originally set out to make this a VERY short post that I was just going to post in the Stronghold thread - obviously it's turned into a novelette. I hope it's not too boring. Maybe this can be the thread on how to establish and maintain a non-exclusive dating relationship.

So, here's the background to a recent Day 4 (yesterday):

Day 2 (on a Tuesday): Walking dogs in park - After the day 2, I realized I was "in" by default with this girl -hbCuteblonde7. I made plenty of mistakes , but as it was mine to mess up, it turned out well. My impression of her is she's a mature and intelligent type for her age, 21. Over the phone and texting, she comes off more mid-20's in terms of maturity, good grammar and syntax in her texts, and you can talk about intelligent things with her-- but more on that below. It's more important to me someone who's personality I match with, so I'm fine with her being a 7.

Day 3 (following Sunday): bounced to several locations: stir fry place - movie rental place - back to her place to watch movies - escalation on couch goes to sex, could have gone all the way to penetration if I wanted, but condom was in car, and didn't feel like interrupting escalation to go get it, lol.

She digs me. The week following the Day 3, I think I'm leading the pace of things pretty well - I resolve in my mind to see her once, maybe twice a week (I like her, so even though this is going to be hard for me, I resolve to try to do this regardless). I want her as a g/f, but not exclusive. I'm careful not to text with her too much. Many of her texts I don't even answer, but she still texts me the days following me not having texted her back.

Day 4 (one week after the Day 3): She cooks dinner for me at her place - I can tell she's really into wanting to do things for me. She's like, "here let me put butter on your bread-would you like me to?" Or we're talking about some type of food, and she's like - "oh, you like that? I can go make that now if you want." Everything feels like it's totally on and I know sex is happening tonight.

However, before I even realize what's happening, a shift in the vibe has taken place - ASD (Anti-slut defense) has kicked in. After dinner she starts getting bratty - a side of her I hadn't seen before.

I'm leaning against the counter, and pull her into me - I tell her she's too stiff - like a mannequin, and I shake her shoulders, mock criticizing her . She loosens up ( I should have gone for a kiss here, but didn't) she gets bratty again, and I push her away, go to couch and ignore her.

She's straddling me on couch, eye contact, flirting. I go to kiss her - she acts like she's going to kiss me back, but puts her gum in my mouth instead, laughing. I spit the gum out at her, purposely landing between her tits, and falling down her shirt, and she has to fish it out. That was pretty funny.

She starts doing this annoying thing of flicking and poking me and laughing - I grab her wrists hard when she does that, and twist her nipple back - she does a half real, half fake "ow". ( I really hate that shit when a girl gets physical like that - I realize I should have said "quit that or I'm leaving" and then be ready to follow through if necessary - more on that shortly).

At a certain point, she says, "If you're just here to eat dinner, fuck me, then leave, you can just go now." "Guess I'll be going then" I say sarcastic, but feeling her up while I'm saying this. (I probably should have said "shut up, I know you want to fuck me")

I go to unbutton her "dress" (basically a long tank top with buttons, pretending to be a dress). She pulls away, "No - I didn't say you could do that." She's being bratty and it's kind of fun, but the ASD undercurrent is real.

I know it's all a bullshit test, and I'm non-reactive for the most part. However , I'm thinking I really do need to be willing to just get up and leave - which I wasn't 100% willing to do cause going home right at that point would have sucked- I hadn't gotten off for several days- and I had no back up plan. I realized right then and there the need to have other girls as back up.

She gets bratty again, I throw her off me to the side, and pretend to watch TV. She climbs back on. Then we're side by side at a certain point and there's this conversation: "I don't want to be a fuck buddy. If that's all I am you can just leave now." I said "I don't want a fuck buddy either" (that is true - I want a non-exclusive "g/f" - not a f/b) "So how do I know I'm not just a fuck buddy to you?" Me: "Cause we do stuff together - a fuck buddy you just fuck and that's it" She's like "okay - but guys have pretended to want to do stuff with me just so they could fuck me." (This conversation is actually a lot more light-hearted than they way it looks down on paper, but that's the basic theme).

So, what was said next is where I may have really fucked up (if what already happened to that point wasn't bad enough) - let me know what you think: She asks "so why did you get my number that night we met?" (she asked me that once previously on the Day 2 at the stir fry place). Maybe I should have said "I have a thing for dorks and you're a huge one" Instead I said a bunch of unmemorable shit, but somewhere in there , I said " cause I want a g/f". Gah, I know ! - but tell me a better thing I should have said, while still being genuine. (Part of me says it's bad that I said that, but part of me also says "g/f" doesn't automatically mean "exclusive g/f" so I haven't said anything untruthful or promised her exclusivity. Of course, when she hears the word "g/f", to her ears that means "exclusive g/f").

Then followed some "genuine" talk about our past relationships - she asks why I broke up with my last g/f - "I didn't see us going anywhere, blah blah blah" Somewhere in there she said "I really like you - I don't want to get close and then hurt".

Then she's like - " well , if we're gonna fuck, we might as well do it". As far as that goes, I did my best to get her done as good as I possibly could. My goal here was to make my dick more valuable to her than her pussy is to me.

Sometime afterward I think she said "so you're just gonna leave now, right?" I said with sarcasm, "Yeah, I really should just leave after fucking you, but not just yet cause I do like cuddling too" I slept there, and left at 7:00 a.m.

So today (the next day) she's texting me all day (Like 4 texts from her spread throughout the day)- woops, there's another one- her telling me "My day off this week is such and such, if you want to do something"--it's now 10:30 at night and I only answered her first one in the morning. Fuck, now another one! - this one saying "Or not. Either way"

So based on all that, and knowing what kind of relationship I want (long-term dating, but not exclusive g/f), did I fuck up my chances at getting that and what should I do/have done differently?

The other question I had was how do you limit your contact with a girl who's going into "girlfriend mode" with you. I know not to talk to her, or text her or definitely not hang out too much - but it kind of nags at you and doesn't seem right when someone's sending you messages and you're not answering back. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with it when next time you're hanging out and she says "so how come you don't answer my texts?" or "how come you don't want to hang out more often?" cause I know those are coming.

In the past I would have just gone right into an exclusive relationship, and I went into this resolved to do things differently this time - which I thought I was doing up to and after the Day 3. But now I fear I'm slipping back into AFC.

Thanks for taking the time reading all that.

... You ignore her texts? That's mean. I ALWAYS answer girls texts, it just sometimes may take me 1-5 hours to get to answering it, but they get an answer. I only ignore people I don't care to see again.

She's texting you A LOT - this means she really does want a relationship. Most girls who want a relationship won't settle for less. They feel they deserve to get what they want. In my experience they only settle for an "open relationship" if you completely did everything 100% right, getting them so sucked into your reality the thought of being without you becomes scary. And in the same breath, that's not a nice thing to do to someone.

You needed to make your intentions clear from DAY ONE - either when you first started flirting, or the first date. I'll tell you what I say to girls, which isn't a lie, no one likes a liar. I say to them, "you know, it takes me a while to really get to know someone. I don't put labels on things, you could say we are "dating," but if feelings are going to escalate and mature that has to happen naturally and with time." If they can't handle that, then it's their own problem.

It may sound like I'm coming down hard on you, but you really messed this up. You flat out told her you were looking for a girlfriend, and perhaps part of you IS looking for that. But if it's not what you want right now, you should not be lying to women. That's not a nice path to go down, trust me I've been there. My prediction is this girl is dead set on getting the relationship she wants, and if it's not going to be with you, she'll find someone else to have it with.

Okay, for me, this is like one of the higher levels of a video game you're just getting to for the first time - maybe keep in mind that's the source of my mistakes more than anything. I'm not going to blame myself too hard over this because I just didn't know any better.

I don't want to be mean - I'm actually a very sensitive person - probably more sympathetic to others' feelings than is good for me - so finding the balance between truly caring on the one hand , yet leading, non-reactiveness and non-supplicating on the other is a challenge. I should clarify - I do answer back but over a much longer time frame than she's texting me - like the next day. If you're taking up to 5 hours, yet she's already texted you several times within that span , wouldn't the one text of yours back to her take care of all the one's she's sent you? I'm just stretching it out to the next day trying to send the signal we're not in relationship land (even though I hear what you're saying that that probably doesn't make a difference at this point).

On day two, we were just walked the dogs and hung out some for about an hour; the "what are we going to be" conversation didn't come up. Should I be the one to bring it up? Now, on Day 3 at the stir fry place, she did ask " so why did you get my number when we met?" It caught me by surprise, so I tried to respond with some intentionally ambiguous c&f bullcrap to keep her guessing (I'm just trying things I've read - where I'm at now is not where I eventually want to be). But maybe that would have been a good opportunity to segue into some down to earth conversation, and say something like "you seemed interesting - and I'm interested in dating. I don't like to put labels on things so I don't know what we're going to be - it usually takes me some time dating a girl to figure all that out- but for now I'm really cool with us dating". What do you think about something like that?

Edit:

PS - I read a lot over on the mASF (fast seduction) forum - the standard of posters over there is very high - including many posters with successful 'harems' of multiple g/f's . Unless I'm mistaken, the consensus over there is you never bring up the "what are we" conversation. You just date who you want to date without feeling guilty about it - and not too much, twice a week, max - and they get the message. I think if you take out my "g/f" comment I made to her (which I acknowledged was a fuck up) I don't see how I did any different.

PPS - I feel privileged you took the time to respond to my post . I've learned tons from your site for which I'd like to say thank you- and as you can see I have lots still to learn.

I would be very aware of what people claim on forums.

One thing i have realised, is that after dating a girl for a while and you have left the relationship ambigous, she will eventually be thinking what the status is, she will blurt it out unconsciously (i.e. just when she is thinking about having kids or marriage, even if it is during that time of the month). Then she will probably do the DTR (define the relationship talk) at some point and be serious about, despite your trying to deflecct it.

So if you try and just doing multiple dating, and have lots of girl firends, they will ask later on whether "we are exclusive or an item" or something along those lines. IF you say you are not and leave her with the choice, then she will decide. Some girls will of course not like it and leave, some will not like it and stay (which is bad move, cause she will despise you, but it is bad full stop cause you are manipulating, and i suggest letting her go), others will be fine. This is the point where she wants me more than i want her, and is what i look for from her, well the one who has met my standards.

you have to remember women want exclusivity especially with a man who is everything they want, yet they dont want to lose him, so they dont mind sharing him, as long as he does not ignore her or cant look after more than one person. Why do you think in some cultures you see guys having more than one wife, or in the days of powerful people, they would have lots of women, or why women have affairs with married men.

What Jack does is very confident and thus attractive, leaving girls with a choice at the very beginning. Though one thing i know of girls, some will tend to be manipulative/political and try and get you exclusive even if she has to be sharing him. You got to have that strong frame not to be pulled into the girls frame. But doing it jack's way is better, then leading a girl on.

I do it the way above, dating multiple girls until the one i want does the DTR talk and then i become exclusive with her. Why? cause I dont want to give my power away. She is investing/compling a lot, thus i know she will be more loyal.

this leads me on to you telling her "you want a g/f". Again you fucked up. You gave up your challenge, she will now assume you are together.

Answering text messages, well i hardly look at my phone during the day, as it is on silent most of the time, due to work. especially during the weekend. Plus if am busy doing something, my phone is on silent. If i miss a call, i will call back or text back. Generally i tell people i can only talk after 630pm on the weekdays. I do check texts, but dont respond for much later, cause am busy but also a slow texter, big fingers. you say if something bad really happens someone would phone my work place.

LAst point, when a women cooks for you, she is in to. She is investing, and the more she invest, the more she likes you. this applies to guys to, look at those AFC guys who do lots of stuff for a woman they secretlly like. Or even if you have a female friend, that does stuff for you beyond what you ask or didnot ask, you can tell she has a crush on you.

ok last point, her anti slut denfence kicked in, which is normal and obvious, unless she is very drunk. Anyway i believe that the better the woman, the more she will test you, the more she will push you away when it comes to sex. There is a problem with this, as girls can be low quality, but be very sought after (i,e, some models or very beautiful women), but you seperate the high quatlity women from the low, when talking and observing her on your dates and phone calls.

Thanks for explaining that - very helpful.

Thinking it over, I still think I'm being very much a challenge. She's the one pursuing me and I'm the one being scarce. She's texting me asking me if we can do stuff and I'm being the leader deciding when or if we get together. Even though that comment of mine was definitely not good- definitely a slip up- I don't think it was really congruent when taking account the much larger context within which it took place (her pursuing me, me being scarce, my non-reactiveness, etc)- hence invalidating the comment to a large degree. Plus I never said that means that she's my g/f nor did I promise her exclusivity. I don't think I signed away my freedom to be with other women nor at this point do I think I would be dishonest if I did so. It's still early so if it comes up, I still think I have the opportunity to (re)clarify things by telling her "we're dating, but I don't know "what we are" cause I don't like labels, etc. etc." Or ignore it, since, again, I don't see where I promised her anything so I don't think I'm leading her on. Anything she may be thinking to the contrary would just be assumptions on her part.

Anyway, I'm learning so don't think that I think I know what I'm talking about or that I'm sure about any of it - I'm just putting it out there.

all the heavy points have been commented on quite well already, but i'll throw in my two cents worth.

LTRs are not something i have a lot of experience with. at most i've dated multiple girls at a time and i try to constantly keep some girls on the back burner, but i'm still a one girl kind of guy. once i find a girl i truly like i usually go exclusive until the fun wears thin. this is why i try to always have a girl or two on the back burner because the relapse time between exclusive girls can be rather lengthy.

either way, i don't believe every girl is just willing to enter into a LTR. even if you present her with everything she wants, if she's wanting something exclusive, i don't see it working. the way i see it is like this: if you present her with everything she wants in a guy except exclusivity, then that's a huge missing part. i only see LTRs working when it's blatantly obvious to the girl that you have other girls in your life. in fact i don't know any guys who have had a (as in one) LTR. it's usually multiple LTRs (mLTRs) which guys like AFC Adam have essentially written the book on. he's got several free things around the internet talking about them. even so those are highly dependent on social game, where the girl knows from the get go that you can have any of the other girls in your social circle. bottom line imo it really requires the right type of girl and and is greatly aided by a large social circle of girls.

also you mention some things about how you said one thing but realized you could of said something better and there's also the part about you saying you want a g/f. a lot of guys get carried away with the C/F lines and the ambiguous style of talking when it comes to girls. i suppose if you're trying to go for a LTR this may not apply since that probably requires you to be on top of your game at all times, but either way, here's my opinion on this matter. being honest at all times and genuine in your intentions is the best way to go imo.

i honestly don't feel that saying you're looking for a girlfriend is the end of the road for you in this situation. ideally (as we are already all aware) you would of played it differently. it's hard to know for certain how it was said or perceived since i wasn't there but i don't view this as removing the challenge (if said properly that is). you never claimed she was the g/f you wanted. it would of been possible to use that very same line and turn it into a qualification/challenge for her. i know exactly what i want in a girl and in situations like that i tell them. it's not possible to determine all of her traits in the initial interaction, that's why your dating. when i girl asks me why i got her number, i tell her the truth. in a nutshell i tell her i thought she was cool and seemed fun. i keep it simple and honest. at the same time it implies no real interest.

had you not wanted a LTR i'd say you handled the situation quite well. unfortunately that's not the case and i can't really give much advise. after reading what i've written i realize i didn't really say much. i had some great things i wanted to say when i started typing, but they've slipped my mind. if i remember i'll post it.

Reading posts as I comment, sorry if anything feels repeated!

@ Jack:
"you know, it takes me a while to really get to know someone. I don't put labels on things, you could say we are "dating," but if feelings are going to escalate and mature that has to happen naturally and with time."

That's money. What a fantastic way to explain - in a logical sense - to a woman that you don't want to rush into exclusivity! Thanks for sharing that.

@ Contact:
I have to agree with Jack on how to handle things in the future. And I have to agree with you that I think you may have slipped accidentally into a GF - no pun intended (or is it?) Anyway, if you DON'T want anything exclusive, I think you've accidentally led this girl on. From an outsiders perspective, it seems pretty clear that she was seeking validation from you, and your comments have unfortunately given her the impression that that's what she is - or at least that's what she's headed for. The poking/laughing thing seems to be a nervous reaction with a lot of girls (I hate it too!). I find when receiving behavior like that, it means they want to talk about something, but aren't sure how to bring it up. I think the hard part here for you is that you realize that even though in your mind you don't define g/f as exclusive, you know that she probably does, so by telling her that, you feel like you've accidentally lied to her. That's a tough spot to be because you're not an asshole, it was unintentional (or seems to be!) but getting her to understand that may be tough.

I think in order to un-fuck this, you're going to have to come clean with her and outline pretty specifically that you want to be able to see other girls as well. I'd probably try to use what Jack dished out, and in the ensuing conversation, I'd let her know exactly what it means. The downside is that conversation - at this point - may piss her off/spook her away, but for your conscious's sake, it's probably worth the risk.

Typical for me, I agree with pretty much everything Canibus and Rhetoric says here as well.

Regarding your post about how she's chasing you (a good frame to be in) bear in mind, she's doing it under the assumption that she is your g/f. As your g/f, it becomes less of an issue for her to comply with your wants. Again - you may not have spelled out that your relationship is exclusive, but you also didn't spell out that it's NOT exclusive, therefore, she's going to apply the common definition of a g/f and make the logical assumption that you guys are exclusive. If you don't want to piss her off / lose her, I think you need to address the topic quickly or she'll feel like you've led her on.

How do you have that conversation? I Think I'd be pretty straight forward about it (no poking her and giggling!). Continue to be the alpha that you have shown her so far (she clearly like that guy!), leave the C&F bit at the door on this and just lay it out. "Hey, something's been bugging me and I just want to be sure that we're on the same page... (Insert a variation on Jacks wording)" I'm not sure I'd offer that advice normally, but since you mentioned you want her to stick around then I think clearing the air and investing a little more into this than you might normally could leave her feeling comfortable/respectful of your honesty with her vs. just ignoring where things are headed and waiting to see what happens with her. The last thing you want is to be day 2-ing another girl and bump into her and her friends when she thinks that you guys are exclusive!

Anyone else?